No Frost, bo BR but Furgon?

XOHOX · 08-22-2008, 03:20 PM

Just yesterday I got a Furgon drop. As it is one of my favourite units I would really like to use it on my grey. However I don't have any Frosts or Beat Riders but I do have a plentyfull suplly of all other units. After experimenting a little with sets and failing miserably I turned to the boards for a set up. In Syphon's Form database there aren't any. The only one's I could find where in the Rate & Review The Formation above yours thread, which I have quoted below. All of these might be usefull vs some specific sets however I feel after trying out that they all have a some weakness on which I have commented below. In order to make it easier to comment on I numberd them.

It might well be that a Furgon in a set with no Frost/BR is always a suboptimal choice (vs random sets). But I thought maybe there is someone out there who has just that kind of set I am looking for. A set that is a good allrounder vs rushes, low golds, turts and even has a chance vs Two Frost sets. Maybe thats too much to ask for, but if I don't I'll never find out...

1.

Quote:

Originally Posted by 1230abcz

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ace of Spades09

I've been in a bit of a slump lately, so I'm changing my set. What do you think of this?

EDIT: My bad, Xiahou. Good points on the Scout placement, I'd keep it where it is. Yeah, you could move the frost up one so you can freeze LW first turn, without moving. 8.7/10

I'de give you a 7/10. I think that the knight are a bit too far back and should be moved up one tile each. As for the Enchantress and Furgon, have them switch places. The Enchantress doesn't strike one square at a time, so having it there would risk all your other units being paralyized, and the Furgon is useless that far back.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xiahou Dun

Well it's pretty nice looking to start with. Furgon may be a little far back to block off your flank fast enough. Especially without a Frosty or Barrier Ward..Move both Knights forward 1 space and place Furgon on the end of the diagonal line. That's all that comes to mind. I might even consider removing the Furgon all together there. And having either a Barrier Ward for the Enchantress to keep focus. Or a Mud for more unblockable damage with Witches and Lightning Ward

. And offensive versatility due to Good Power Movement and some Range.

So are you talking about the Scout placement next to the wall. Or the one on the Flank?

I am not sure on this one, or maybe I am not using it right, but I think the chanty and witches are too vulnerable. You can't really attack with the witches outside of your form because they will be killed quickly. Inside your Form they will damage your own units. If you want to protect these with shrubs it will block your own movement.
Also I think the Furgon is too far back to be used effectively.

2.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Girshwin

A fun form, but I've had success with it- you need furgy skillz to use it well.

As already stated a fun form, but I guess it is useless against any decent player... He will just pick of the chanties, altough I agree it might take some time and patience in a grey match up, it will be destroyed vs a gold.

3.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DIGID

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ace of Spades09

I just won a furgon and I need help with a new setup.

http://i16.tinypic.com/2mhsu29.jpg <<This what I'm thinking about using.

Any ideas?

I don't think you should use 2 Clerics with a Furgon. A Furgon is for more defensive formations, while 2 Clerics is for more offensive formations.

I suggest you take out the Cleric and add an Enchantress. Then, consider replacing the Dark Magic Witch with the Beast Rider or Assassin.

This is one of the more solid sets I have tried out, still I think the Furgon is a quite a way back while the Witch is difficult to protect without a BW.

4.

Quote:

Originally Posted by argetlam

Quote:

Originally Posted by Girshwin

9/10. I like it a lot, for the reasons you stated.

i unno that much but from personal experience id say ur set is two defensive for a two cleric turt.... set more a turt bomb thing cause thats how u want to be playing with a 2 cleric set.

Just to make it easier to defend vs bombs I would take the Scout back one
and the middle knight one in front. Other then that it worked alright. Probably my favourite one so far.

5.

Quote:

Originally Posted by jennifer aniston

Quote:

Originally Posted by Crimson Phoenix

It's pretty sturdy - 7.5/10 - against scouts, id say its good
against an all out witch rush - u may have some problems there - the flank is pretty good too -

This is the only one I haven't tried yet. It looks really interesting and I guess it could work, but shouldn't I put a mud in there somewhere? vs sets with Frosts it will be pretty tough.

6.

Quote:

Originally Posted by -supremebeing-

Quote:

Originally Posted by Legendary Drow

I don't know if it's this set or just me playing poorly(< prolly this). I've been raped 3 times in a row with it so I thought I'd post it for comments.

Duel frost would eat that alive freeze your scout then your mud comes in freeze that then your basically gone. Id trade cleric for a assassin bomb can come in handy with a bw.

Quote:

Originally Posted by aznballa_33

I do use the frosties lol! In about 95+ of the games since Under was upgraded. I posted that form to help Mccallum out.

Your form Drow is probably a 7. Its quite witchable, frostable, heck if your opponent is using freezer, its definitely chantyable. It move mud back one, and the right knight and scout back one. You could switch positions of knight and scout after that too.

I agree with the comments...

If you have read so far I would appreciate if you would leave a comment,
or maybe post one of your forms.

Xiahou Dun · 08-22-2008, 03:39 PM

Here you go.

Feel free to move Furgon back one if you feel like it.

Feel free to switch Assassin and Scout if you feel like it.

Feel free to switch Mud and Barrier Ward if you feel like it.

Feel free to move Enchantress over one if you feel like it.

Feel Free to swap Assassin for LW if you feel like it. but I wouldn't reccomend it. The best unit to swap out for a LW is a Furgon as they both do the same job. Albeit differently. They're both their to provide both stability to your frontline and be an obstacle for enemy units to get around. The LW can be a threat to their frontline units as well but has a high recovery and can only act as a deterrent, as wel as only defending one area. Whereas a Furgon is not so scary to an opponent but is mor euseful as it has a low recovery can block not just deter enemys and can create obstacles anywhere it likes. the Furgon is a great replacemt for LW and it's better t have one more mobile attacking uit then a Furgon AND a LW in my opinion.

lemon · 08-22-2008, 03:49 PM

Im a big fan of center sets. It gives you some chances against frost users (no straightforward freeze-kill-freeze wins), and you can smack mask-queish rushes straight in the face with LW and witch. Its a wide set so its not easy to flank, altho open center file can give some problems.

Xiahou Dun · 08-22-2008, 04:00 PM

If I was gonna go for a centre I would drop the Barrier for a Lightning Ward and use something like this, I like to Centre the Scout in a Centre set.

XOHOX · 08-22-2008, 07:03 PM

Just out of interest it would be nice if you could tell me how long you have played with these forms.

Xiahou Dun your first form is the most interesting I think because of what you have pointed out that the Furgon can "replace" the LW in some way and having one more mobile attacker gives you more versatility. I am just wondering if that chanty isn't a wasted unit, can't the Furgon partly do her job by distracting enemies? Wouldn't it be better to take her out for a witch this would give you the extra range unit you might need vs a double frost as well as a lot of threat potential combined with the BW.
You second set look nice too, but I can't see a use for the chanty, she seems pretty exposed and wouldn't she be pretty useless without a BW to protect her?

lemon, sorry but I can't see how your set would work. The Witch will be killed quickly without a BW support, and having no muddy will make it difficult vs frost and wisps. And again what will the chanty do without a BW support? I knwo you are a very good player, so maybe its just me using the set in a wrong way?

Here is the set I am currently trying out, basically it is an adapdation of Bottle's dropless grey but with a little more offense potential. If you feel aggressive you can move both the witch and BW forward one tile, giving the witch the potential to cover the entire field while still beeing barrierd, as well as being able to hit multiple units in rushe with just one move, the drawbacks are obviously off centre LW's and a more vulnerable position of the BW.

I am thinking of combining this set with the first of Xiahou's formations taking the LW out for an Asn and then reshuffle units a little. What do you think?

Xiahou Dun · 08-22-2008, 07:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by XOHOX

Xiahou Dun your first form is the most interesting I think because of what you have pointed out that the Furgon can "replace" the LW in some way and having one more mobile attacker gives you more versatility. I am just wondering if that chanty isn't a wasted unit, can't the Furgon partly do her job by distracting enemies? Wouldn't it be better to take her out for a witch this would give you the extra range unit you might need vs a double frost as well as a lot of threat potential combined with the BW.

Partly yes, but not completely. Srubs can still be hacked through and openings WILL be made. but these openings will be small concentrated chkepoints and rarely more then one of them. A freezer is great for giving you a free kill on any unit that tries to break through. Also a Chanty is needed for if Knights make a push into the centre towards Cleric as you can't really kill them fast enough to prevent at leasts ome damage being done. You could certainly swiap her out for a Witch if you like but I wouldn't do it personally. It has it's merits so if you prefer t that way go ahead.

Quote:

Originally Posted by XOHOX

You second set look nice too, but I can't see a use for the chanty, she seems pretty exposed and wouldn't she be pretty useless without a BW to protect her?

There's always a use for a paralysing unit if you ask me, and a Furgon can protect her 99% as well as a BW can most of the time. The Furgon is on that side, it can shrub up two squares behind itself to block off all Scout LOS and then move two over and back one. The Scout can be moved over next to it and the Assassin can switch sides to stand where the Furgon was stood after that moves to make a new wall in just a couple of turns.

Quote:

Originally Posted by XOHOX

I am thinking of combining this set with the first of Xiahou's formations taking the LW out for an Asn and then reshuffle units a little. What do you think?

Doesn't sound like a bad idea. Worth a try.

Quote:

Originally Posted by XOHOX

lemon, sorry but I can't see how your set would work. The Witch will be killed quickly without a BW support, and having no muddy will make it difficult vs frost and wisps.

lemon didn't intentionally omit a Mud from the set he misread your post and thought that you had no Mud. I'll let lemon answer the other questions himself.

lemon · 08-22-2008, 08:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by XOHOX

lemon, sorry but I can't see how your set would work. The Witch will be killed quickly without a BW support, and having no muddy will make it difficult vs frost and wisps. And again what will the chanty do without a BW support? I knwo you are a very good player, so maybe its just me using the set in a wrong way?

Here is the set I am currently trying out, basically it is an adapdation of Bottle's dropless grey but with a little more offense potential. If you feel aggressive you can move both the witch and BW forward one tile, giving the witch the potential to cover the entire field while still beeing barrierd, as well as being able to hit multiple units in rushe with just one move, the drawbacks are obviously off centre LW's and a more vulnerable position of the BW.

I am thinking of combining this set with the first of Xiahou's formations taking the LW out for an Asn and then reshuffle units a little. What do you think?

Well, I dont think witch would be that easy to kill unless facing some hardcore rush and really, I almost always end up suiciding my witch in opening moves to give me some initiative, so she's always the first unit to die, BW or not.

About choice of units, it's because of my style again (and Xiahou is right, I somehow managed to assume you dont have a mud). Im that kind of guy that will attack until the very last moment then pull some defensive moves to keep opponent from completely tearing you up at home and the continue with your attack. Chanty suits this style of play well. BW would be nice, but which unit you'd take out? Its not like really you could survive a good attack anyways, its kind of lost cause without a frost. And 5 attackers = bad. You could take out the LW for it, but witch rushes and stuff like that are much worse when using a center.

And, the set might outright suck, I dont really know. I haven't done any playtesting, just some thing I threw together in couple of minutes.

About your set, I just know it wouldn't suit my playstyle at all. And as I said, I dont like using frostless corner sets because of major diffulties you have against sets with frost(s). Having that in mind, I think your set is alright. No obvious flaws except that hole in front of cleric but you can't really cover that without seriously weakening your offense (and please, dont put BW there!). I'd maybe move BW to cover side chess-knight-shot at your cleric. I like that position a lot, but I know others don't.

XOHOX · 08-23-2008, 05:25 PM

So after a quite a few games here is my take:

Xiahou's first form is alot of fun to play against other greys,
the BW gives it alot of fun attacking moves and having one more mobile unit
makes interesting forrmation games possible luring enemies in before killing them.
However as an all pupose set it is just too weak. There are just certain types of set
that are difficult to play with a frostless grey these are notably golds and greys with frost,
and this set is doing worse against these stronger sets then other sets I have used before.
So my conclusion is its a really interesting set for prearranged grey matches.

Your second set however contrary to my expectations really kicks ass.
I have just beaten a couple of Frost greys and gold with it.
What makes this set so good is the abundance of space which allows
to freeze units with chanty without freezing your own, which often happens to me in cornered sets as well as the furgon to stop the enemy of breaking into that space.
That it is centered makes it very versatile against all kinds os sets.
Thanks alot Xiahou for sharing this.

lemon, I didn't try your set because of the lack of a mud...

Xiahou Dun · 08-23-2008, 05:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by XOHOX

So after a quite a few games here is my take:

Xiahou's first form is alot of fun to play against other greys,
the BW gives it alot of fun attacking moves and having one more mobile unit
makes interesting forrmation games possible luring enemies in before killing them.
However as an all pupose set it is just too weak. There are just certain types of set
that are difficult to play with a frostless grey these are notably golds and greys with frost,
and this set is doing worse against these stronger sets then other sets I have used before.
So my conclusion is its a really interesting set for prearranged grey matches.

Your second set however contrary to my expectations really kicks ass.
I have just beaten a couple of Frost greys and gold with it.
What makes this set so good is the abundance of space which allows
to freeze units with chanty without freezing your own, which often happens to me in cornered sets as well as the furgon to stop the enemy of breaking into that space.
That it is centered makes it very versatile against all kinds os sets.
Thanks alot Xiahou for sharing this.

Hehe. Yeah a Centre is better against Golds and 2 Frost Greys. Thanks and glad you liked the sets.

Fearliss · 08-28-2008, 08:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xiahou Dun

If I was gonna go for a centre I would drop the Barrier for a Lightning Ward and use something like this, I like to Centre the Scout in a Centre set.

Would this set also work if the chanty was switched sides? I think it would work a little better seeing that the furgon is already there to cover that side.

Also, would you recommend using this set with a BR? OR does the assassin and BR serve different purposes in this set?

08-22-2008, 03:39 PM	#2 (permalink)
Xiahou Dun The voice of (t)reason Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: England Somerset Taunton Posts: 7,411	Here you go. Feel free to move Furgon back one if you feel like it. Feel free to switch Assassin and Scout if you feel like it. Feel free to switch Mud and Barrier Ward if you feel like it. Feel free to move Enchantress over one if you feel like it. Feel Free to swap Assassin for LW if you feel like it. but I wouldn't reccomend it. The best unit to swap out for a LW is a Furgon as they both do the same job. Albeit differently. They're both their to provide both stability to your frontline and be an obstacle for enemy units to get around. The LW can be a threat to their frontline units as well but has a high recovery and can only act as a deterrent, as wel as only defending one area. Whereas a Furgon is not so scary to an opponent but is mor euseful as it has a low recovery can block not just deter enemys and can create obstacles anywhere it likes. the Furgon is a great replacemt for LW and it's better t have one more mobile attacking uit then a Furgon AND a LW in my opinion. __________________ Cold as ice cream, but still as sweet.

08-22-2008, 03:49 PM	#3 (permalink)
lemon My way is no way. Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: Lithuania Posts: 350	Im a big fan of center sets. It gives you some chances against frost users (no straightforward freeze-kill-freeze wins), and you can smack mask-queish rushes straight in the face with LW and witch. Its a wide set so its not easy to flank, altho open center file can give some problems. __________________ Thanks to Junier for awesome banner.

08-22-2008, 04:00 PM	#4 (permalink)
Xiahou Dun The voice of (t)reason Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: England Somerset Taunton Posts: 7,411	If I was gonna go for a centre I would drop the Barrier for a Lightning Ward and use something like this, I like to Centre the Scout in a Centre set. __________________ Cold as ice cream, but still as sweet. Last edited by Xiahou Dun; 08-22-2008 at 04:03 PM.

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08-22-2008, 07:03 PM	#5 (permalink)
XOHOX Member Join Date: Nov 2006 Posts: 37	Just out of interest it would be nice if you could tell me how long you have played with these forms. Xiahou Dun your first form is the most interesting I think because of what you have pointed out that the Furgon can "replace" the LW in some way and having one more mobile attacker gives you more versatility. I am just wondering if that chanty isn't a wasted unit, can't the Furgon partly do her job by distracting enemies? Wouldn't it be better to take her out for a witch this would give you the extra range unit you might need vs a double frost as well as a lot of threat potential combined with the BW. You second set look nice too, but I can't see a use for the chanty, she seems pretty exposed and wouldn't she be pretty useless without a BW to protect her? lemon, sorry but I can't see how your set would work. The Witch will be killed quickly without a BW support, and having no muddy will make it difficult vs frost and wisps. And again what will the chanty do without a BW support? I knwo you are a very good player, so maybe its just me using the set in a wrong way? Here is the set I am currently trying out, basically it is an adapdation of Bottle's dropless grey but with a little more offense potential. If you feel aggressive you can move both the witch and BW forward one tile, giving the witch the potential to cover the entire field while still beeing barrierd, as well as being able to hit multiple units in rushe with just one move, the drawbacks are obviously off centre LW's and a more vulnerable position of the BW. I am thinking of combining this set with the first of Xiahou's formations taking the LW out for an Asn and then reshuffle units a little. What do you think?

08-23-2008, 05:25 PM	#8 (permalink)
XOHOX Member Join Date: Nov 2006 Posts: 37	So after a quite a few games here is my take: Xiahou's first form is alot of fun to play against other greys, the BW gives it alot of fun attacking moves and having one more mobile unit makes interesting forrmation games possible luring enemies in before killing them. However as an all pupose set it is just too weak. There are just certain types of set that are difficult to play with a frostless grey these are notably golds and greys with frost, and this set is doing worse against these stronger sets then other sets I have used before. So my conclusion is its a really interesting set for prearranged grey matches. Your second set however contrary to my expectations really kicks ass. I have just beaten a couple of Frost greys and gold with it. What makes this set so good is the abundance of space which allows to freeze units with chanty without freezing your own, which often happens to me in cornered sets as well as the furgon to stop the enemy of breaking into that space. That it is centered makes it very versatile against all kinds os sets. Thanks alot Xiahou for sharing this. lemon, I didn't try your set because of the lack of a mud...