Syphon

How do you tackle the dominant formation in heavily dropped matches?
yeah, so, a lot of you will probably mention how incomplete this is. well just kindly allude to it, and I will see what I can do. Note that this will not be a beginner's guide, if you feel it is a beginner's guide, then I must be a beginner, because this incorporates most of what I know.

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I decided actual match footage is the best teacher. Here is an annotated version of an opposite side dual frost game. I tried to keep it pretty consistent with the guide, with minor deviations.

A video tutorial: Playing Against Dual Frosts: A Tutorial

More match footage. This, in contrast is a same side game. Darkness vs. du (my POV). The major differences are that every unit has a more immediate influence on one another, and that scouts are much less effective than in opposite side games. Instead, the mud plays a more pivotal role, and is higher priority.

A video tutorial: Playing Against Dual Frosts: A Second Tutorial

A third tutorial. In this one you can see how to overwhelm dual frosts on same sides. This takes much longer in opposite side games, but is essentially the same with multiple attack points and tons of backup.

A video tutorial: Playing Against Dual Frosts: A Third Tutorial

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Note that if you are on the defensive against a dual frost form, your opponent is not playing to their strengths if they have less attackers than you (unless your positioning is terrible). If they are winning, you may just be on different tactical levels.

Much of this knowledge can be extrapolated to general turtle vs. turtle games.

Opposite sides
A text tutorial: Always know where your units are in relation to frosts. Always keep track of frost movement verses frost range. While they have a range of 6 with movement, they are often restricted by their own friendly units. This should make it clear what you want to do.

A good opponent will try to extend his or her defensive front while advancing the frosts if you do not rush them (make shift attacks are ill advised). The key is containment, deterrence, and baiting.

Containing with scout:
In response, ping their most extended units with your scout, to lower blocking or do damage. Force that unit to retreat towards their back line or towards their ward (if they have one). This should crowd their movement, and take away advanced cover for frosts.

Put your scout in a position that is more or less stationary, but of course secure. A well positioned scout is one that is at about a 7 tile radius from their frosts (self-explanatory). Preserve this unit at ALL costs.

Containing with beast:
Beasts are great for poking frosts hiding behind knights. Only use beasts to defocus over-extended frosts. Good beast positioning is 4 tiles from their front. Do not rush in to defocus if the 2nd frost can freeze you. Consider the beast a tier 3 unit, after scout and mud, it is the most valuable and durable ranged unit, save it over lower tier ones (e.g. Knight).

Containing with Furgon:
Many people do not use Furgons actively enough. Most often they are played passively, in a reactionary sense. Active (preemptive) defense is a much more advanced technique, and can improve your level of play.

The best way to use Furgon against frosts is to prevent the units around the frost from moving. This is VERY effective: this causes congestion. Your opponent will be forced to waste valuable turns hacking shrubs or shift positions to free up frost movement. Just as important, it prevents units from your opponent’s front from attacking your range (e.g. you can LOS frosts from behind your shrubs).

The less movement they have, the more freedom you have to set up your attack (more on this later). Also, make sure not to get Furgon frozen if you can’t defocus, it dies quickly.

Containing with Knights:
Knights should be played very specifically to this game type. When containing frosts, you must line them up diagonally just out of range. This way, even if scout is unavailable, knights may defocus each other if a frost freezes one (which is not the case if they are in a straight line).

Also, do not be afraid to get your knights frozen if you can protect them. They are very good bait because they die very slowly while you can use these turns to set up an attack while frosts are occupied. More on how to attack later.

Containing with Mud:
Is actually a misconception. Mud is another very powerful deterrent. Never send a mud in when neither frost has wait. And, in general, never use mud unless you have to. The key is to find time to position mud carefully, especially outside scout LOS. If mud is injured (< 50hp), do not rush in.
The most effective way to use mud is to defocus frosts that have frozen units that are already in threatening positions. Again, I will explain later.

Containing with Frost(s):
Yes, the frost golem IS a ranged unit. One of your most versatile actually. It can penetrate barriers, isn’t limited by LOS, and has a range of 4 or 6 with movement. Get to know your units.

ADVANCE YOUR FROSTS. Actually, you can to the same crap your opponent can. Bait in their scout, their mud, etc.

But, also realize how useful frosts are for paralyzing other frosts. The other frost loses focus, cannot immediately refocus, and baits an opponent’s range. If you have correctly advanced your frosts, you can position them so that your opponent enters your own frost range to paralyze one of your units. You can make this easier for yourself by shrubbing effectively, or with clever knight placement.

Containing with mages:
Most heavily dropped forms (other than witch rushes) do not include mages, so this section will be short. The key is to put your mage in threatening but protected positions. The DMW attack pattern is wonderful when attacking through shrubs. You know the basics and tradeoffs of the pyro already.

How to attack an opposite side dual frost form:
If you have moderately contained your opponent’s frosts, they should be forced to protect them, and will not have good attacking opportunities. So, go on the offensive.

Philosophically, offensive play is the most sound. Defensive play waits for your opponent to make a mistake. Let’s go with the assumption that you are playing top level players. You must force the moves. This method of winning requires neither to make mistakes (the best kind of games I know of). Only it requires one to outplay the other.

So. How to NOT attack: do not rush in, do not sacrifice range for cleric, do not sacrifice range for 1 frost, do not go one by one. Not a game likely to appeal to an impatient player. This section will delve into the area of turn order. This is very hard to explain, and very situational, and easy to describe incorrectly. The idea is to have your range available as often as possible.

Order of mobilization:
In my experience, always move scout first. Move it so that the enemy scout cannot get a side shot, while have access to the most tiles on the board.

After moving scout, move 1 or two knights towards scout (towards opponent’s back line), depending on how many knights are on the opponent’s flank, and if they are approaching your scout. This should serve as an effective secondary cover. The primary being that near your clerics, frosts, and Furgon.

Next, move your frosts up. If you do not have frosts, move Furgon, and if… yeah, then advance beast. If not, then pray you have a mud. Always leave at least to attacking units back to protect cleric.

Assuming you have the units aforementioned, move frost towards middle of the board (but behind cover, no free scout shots). Your scout should have no wait, depending on opponent development, retreat or ping wall units. If nothing is exposed, advance Furgon, it is unlikely they have push their front much if you have no angle.

Now you should have about 2 knights, scout, and beast in a sort of curve around enemy frost range. If you have forced back enough wall units with your own frosts, and scout, then you have made it to the interesting part of the game. Congrats.

Knights first:
Gradually flank with knights. Allow one within frost range (barely) so that to freeze the frost would over extend itself. Your scout should be able to easily defocus, and you get free damage, force a heal maybe.
In all honesty, a smart opponent would likely not freeze the knight, but reinforce defense at the attack point using a unit from his or her frontal defense (now switched to flank defense). This is good for you.

So let’s say he or she leaves you alone. This is fine, you have basically further congested his or her units. Now you can advance another unit which you kept behind because the chance of a counter-attack is less. All the while you should be moving your frost(s) up. At this point, your opponent will try for your frosts back with their scout. Use this opportunity to attack the scout etc.

Now it gets sticky.

Baiting:
The idea is to get frosts away from the corners on your opponent’s side, for very obvious reasons: they are easy to cover, safe, and deadly when a frost occupies such a spot. Hopefully you did not rush in. Allowing the opponent’s frosts to advance is important – to a point: when we want to contain them.

When they have extended enough, try to bait them with knights just in frost range, as we discussed earlier, tempt over extension. A good guise for your real purpose is to target a vital unit with your knights, and get them frozen. Don’t be afraid to get two knights frozen, often this distracts the opponent.

Next, start by trying to un-focus the frost controlling your weakest unit with scout. It should now be on 42 or so. Consider the frosts now over extended. It would be a poor decision for the opponent to refreeze unless your knight was one-hit (it shouldn’t be, though).

Multiple Attack Points
If your opponent does not offer a vulnerable unit, chances are he or she is not attacking you either. Use this time to move around their defensive front. Often, if you diligently allot your turns, you can move a knight and a beast to their inner flank (remember, up until this point, we have been moving around their outer flank).

What this does is simple. Usually your movement drags an opposing frost with it, so that the inner flank has frost cover. By doing so, the frost protecting the outer flank is left more isolated. If you watch the video, you will notice how I took advantage of separated frosts, which cannot help each other. But I did not have to split my attack to do so.

If this is the case, you can move in and attack the flank with everything, one frost won't be able to handle it. However, a really good opponent will read this and actually defend the inner flank by moving the frost that is furthest away from the corners (usu. the one protecting the outer flank). This is more dangerous.

The only thing you can do now is take advantage of the newly formed gap between the units in their defensive front and the frosts behind them. You can usually attack them without being frozen, but on the same token they can retreat easily into frost range.

Bringing in the Mud
At this point, their scout and frosts should be pushed back in preparation for your multi-pronged attack. Move your mud up as far as possible without being in knight range. Great mud positions include the corners opposite to those of your opponent's base. Ideally, you mud can hit all cornered frosts across from it.

At this point, you should attack. Mobilize scout first so that when you follow up with knights it will recover by the time your knights have been frozen (2 turns = 2 knights, maybe). Here you can be tricky. Attacking cleric with scout is a great distraction. Scout should be pretty safe because your knights are pressed up.

If you can force a heal, using mud becomes twice as effective. Assuming that all 3 corners are occupied, going and quaking is generally a good move. The following moves are crucial (cleric should be on standby, and scout is on wait 1). Engage the units you moved towards the inner flank into battle. If they have an LW, make sure to use knight first.

Finishing
Generally, if the frost freezes mud, you won't be able to hit it with scout (LOS is usually covered by an decent player). Instead, use the opportunity to have your free knight run rampant. Their cleric should still be on wait. Aim for things that have low blocking or are close to death (e.g. scout).

Try to force another heal. To prevent units in the opponent's defensive front from crowding LOS, freeze them with your now very advanced frosts. You opponent cannot afford to defocus them and spread damage around.

The rest of the game is messy. But given your freedom of movement and move choice at this stage, you will win maybe 70% of the time, even if you opponent does not make an large mistakes (in which case you should win period). Try to poke at frosts with BR and hack at stuff with your 2 free knights. It is likely that mud will die, but you can usually heavily injure their cleric, scout, and frosts. If you kill even just 1 frost, retreat what you have.

You can repeat this process. This just about sums up an opp side game.

Same Sides Games
There are a few notable differences in the same side game:

Faster pace
Quite obvious, but here is why: All units are more or less within range of each other and generally have a more immediate effect on game play when they move. There are some consequences to this. One must pay attention to all pieces constantly, because they all have the ability to switch into active roles more quickly.

In opposite side games, bringing units into play is not as subtle and harder to hide. In same side games, minor movements can put pieces in pivotal positions.

The Scout
The scout is actually much less useful on same side games. Its LOS is always useful, but it has far less attack angle even with 4 movement. It is common for people to try and flank a same side by curving a knight and scout (maybe beast too) around your front. But in dual frost games, there is seldom time for that.

The best players can pull it off, however, by slowing down the game enough and giving themselves time to move. More on same side flanking later.

The Mud!
Instead, the mud is actually a better strategy disruptor than the scout. It doesn’t use LOS, and can teleport. Because movement is much easier to block in same side games, teleportation is extremely useful. Because of this, consider your mud and scout on the same tier of importance, both are equally necessary.

Frosts
As many of you already know, same side frosts are very annoying. This is of course because they are even more effective. In fact, they are not far behind the mud and scout in terms of range and focus breaking ability. They not limited by LOS and their small movement is less of a problem because movement is pretty constricted anyways.

If your frosts are in danger, they are often more valuable than knights etc. Also, your use of pockets is very important to using your frosts well.

Furgon
Many do not see the value of the Furgon on same sides where the active defense area is pretty small in comparison to that of an opp side game. Instead, I think it is great for containing frosts very pervasively. When my opponent’s frosts are distracted by, say, knights, I often just run up and shrub around the knights and frosts filling up whatever space I can in their formation.

Note: constricting your opponent's frosts is different from accidentally protecting them. Do not shrub if you are blocking off your own LOS.

There is a risk of my Furgon being frozen. But in general, it is pretty each to shrub effectively while protecting yourself, and kill the Furgon can take 5 or 6 turns. Use these turns to kill of frozen attacking units or bait range. In addition, without quaking within their own form, it will take your opponent additional turns to remove shrubs.

Beast Rider
The beast rider is a good fast break unit. It is good for creating small gaps between frosts and knights that are part of the defensive front (because they would be poked otherwise). This gap is great for scout LOS or mud openings.

Position the beast so that it has access to a large number of tiles. Try not to get beast frozen early on.

New Stuff - Aug 28, 2008

Same Side Flanking
This is an important skill to hone at higher levels of play. As you may know, frontal attacks on same side formations are disadvantageous against dual frost formations if your opponent sets up (doesn't take long!).

The idea is to, with your outer flank units, approach the opposing formation. Avoiding frost range is usually best, but drawing a frost away from the inner flank is also good if your range is developed there. A good opponent will likely intercept your distraction, and force you to retreat your outer flank attack.

If conditions are right, instead of retreating back towards your side of the board, retreat towards the opposite corner of your opponents base on their side of the board. This is the key to same side flanking. A good rule of thumb is to only maneuver as such when you have as many flanking units as they have intercepting units. If not, you may be forced back onto your side of the board.

Attacking a Same Side Outer Flank
At this point, you should heal the units you sent. The idea is to put them in threatening positions so that defending units are pinned to block LOS, movement, or attack range. Generally it is a good idea, if possible, to bring along scout and beast.

Mud and frosts on the other hand are perfectly effective in head-on battle anyways, and so are not worth taking the time to move across the board. Basically, continue to encroach on the opponent's space until they are forced to draw a frost over.

This is the cue to lodge your frontal (inner flank) assault in an attempt to overwhelm the single frost. Do not rush in if your opponent has more mobile attackers on the inner flank than you do. You can change this by freezing them with your own frost. Hopefully, if you don't have frosts, you have more mobile attackers.

Your opponent will have to freeze in coming units. Rush in your melee units from both attack points, the inner and outer flanks, and try to damage frosts. Do not do this if your opponent has contained your mud. Make sure mud is in prime position, can quake either frost, and there is a relatively safe place in your opponent's form to do so. If this is not the case, you need to be patient, and pin defensive units differently.

Once they are frozen, your mud should be in position to defocus both frosts simultaneously. Hopefully you freed up some LOS as well. Now you should have a good number of disruptive attacking units inside their grill and the frosts should not be able to stay focused. If this is the case, you have probably won the game.

To be continued…

du

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Snarr is my mentor, and still makes cents

snakebite

Very nice du , + rep.

~snakebite

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My wins
Snakebite wins

Syphon

thanks. I was hoping more than 1 person would read some of it.. >_>

du

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Snarr is my mentor, and still makes cents

snakebite

Maybe the fact that you said : "Note that this will not be a beginner's guide." Made a bunch of people stop reading

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Gift: LoSt SouL
My wins
Snakebite wins

Syphon

Haha. I added a video tutorial. It is pretty thorough.

du

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Snarr is my mentor, and still makes cents

snakebite

I just finished watching it, Some intresting moves, altough sometimes the text is going a bit fast ( in the mid game ), it is pretty good !

~snake

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Gift: LoSt SouL
My wins
Snakebite wins

DL

I'd say many people would read this more if it was displayed on the bit where the forum had all it's latest posts. I lieked it. Very good. read.

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Simon Underwood

This is a very good tutorial. I liked the videa too, it was quite intesting. The information that you provide is very valuble. Thankyou for taking the time to write that out for us. I was very much like to see how you would handle same sided battles...

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Bottle

I'd be far more impressed if you wrote a tutorial on how to beat double frosts...

WITH A DROPLESS.

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Official Best and Worst Moderator of 2007 and 2008

Terror of Kawaii

Wow, that's a lot different from what I thought pwning double frosts is like.


Usually I just give a few knights, beast, scout, and mud some PCP and smash through their form.

...which usually ends in failure....so yeah.

I wish I could be jaunty like that and prance around their flank with peppering and tricky maneuvers...

I shall have to train. Great guide though, enjoyable read.

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