One of the things that makes the much-vaunted Netjak Rush so powerful is it's ability to combine two elements of TAO that Seed tried to make mutually exclusive in the way he built the units: turn efficiency and target efficiency.

Turn efficiency is just that: the ability to use every turn to good effect. Whether it's actually
damaging an opponent or merely advancing a serious threat to the opponent's plans, it's a
good bet that the player who uses his time inefficiently is going to have a really hard time
winning.

Target efficiency is the ability to deal damage to (a) target(s) that are actually important to
damage; i.e. to overcome elements such as range, LOS, and blocking and actually take out a
valuable target rather than the nearest one.

Notably, the units that have the best turn efficiency (Knights, Assassins, and Beast Riders) have some of the worst target efficiency (BRs an arguable exception), and the units that have the best target efficiency (Dragon Tyrants, Mud Golems, Ambys) have some of the worst turn efficiency.

In the opening of the game, enough target efficiency can get you to some very important milestones (killing the Cleric), and the turn-inefficiency of those units can be covered by the sheer number of units on the board. Toward the end of the game, enough turn efficiency (if your opponent doesn't have enough on his side) can totally win the game, as you strictly out-damage the remaining opposition. So from this perspective, going straight for your opponent's turn-efficient units right out of the box can totally win you the game if you manage to keep yours alive. Of course, Seed saw this coming, and made the turn-efficient units rather hard to kill (high blocking, Knights also have mad HP).

(On a side note, this is precisely why the DragonSpeaker Mage is such a bastard. He's the best way to take down those tough-to-kill Knights and Assassins and leave your opponent with multiple useless turns in the endgame.)


The Netjak Rush combines a line of the best target-efficient units in the game (Scout, Mud, Amby, DT) with the best turn-efficient unit (Knights). Because of this ability to off almost any single target very early and then continue to use every turn to maximum advantage, the Netjak Rush throws the usual logic of TAO (kill the range first to keep your underbelly safe and/or initiate frostwhoring) on it's head. The Netjak Rush's weakness, then, is simply stated, but difficult to accomplish: you have to take out the turn-efficient units fast, and then rely on the relative weakness and killability of his target-efficient units to get you through to the end.

As such, the early game is critical to taking down a Netjak Rush. You have to set up in such a way that the NJR doesn't have easy access to the unit it's after, making them spend an extra turn or two to get there -- and then you have to use those precious three or four turns to burninate their Knights and Dragon Tyrant to Tartarus and back. Once they've killed the target of their choice (almost always your Cleric, but some NJRs go for Frosts first), if they've managed to save their Dragon Tyrant along the way, you're doomed for a very tough game. But if you can take the Tyrant down (and hopefully severely weaken a Knight or two along the way), you've already set yourself up for a good time. All of the NJ units except the DT and the Mud are blockable, and their lack of effort put into damaging your Knights is going to end up saving you more HP than a single Cleric ever would have. The best way I've found to go after the Dragon: DSMs and Poison Wisps. If you only poison the Dragon and nothing else, an NJR will frequently ignore the Wisp until your Cleric is dead. The DSM of course will knock 1/3 of the DT's hit points off in a single blow; often enough for the NJR to waste two or three turns taking it down (more time to beat his DT to death!) As a single gold, your best bets are a centered LW (seriously!) and your own DT, followed up by Amby/Scout shots and a Mudpunch from the rear.

So take your Knights, and go after his units in this order: the Mud Golem (unblockable damage is bad), any remaining Knights (get rid of his turn efficiency), the Scout, and the Amby. Keep in mind that your blocking is your best defense, so use it: stick to the walls and/or turn your back to his long-Wait units as much as possible. Remember: if he gets you down to a single attacker, you've lost to his Frosty.

Now, from a philosophical perspective, what this means is that the best way to beat the NJR is to play the same style of game: enough target efficiency to burn the DT and Knights to a crisp in the early game, and enough turn efficiency to push into his remaining less-efficient units in the mid-to-late game. The fundamental playstyle is actually very similar; just the choice of targets is different.

Perhaps this says something about the mechanics of TAO and how it is best played regardless of specific setup. Perhaps.

__________________
Essence

Light a man a fire, and you keep him warm for a night. Light a man on fire, and you keep him warm for the rest of his short, agonizing life.

An interesting choice of tactic, but full of holes. If you intend to use the wisp as a pure anti-dragon weapon, what happens if it gets hit straight after it poisons? 8HP (maybe 16) of damage from a 30HP unit is not a good idea in the "I've got more HP than you, nyah" world of freestyle. Similarly for the DSM, although I agree that a well-used DSM can be vital in doing some serious damage to the netjak rush's knights (or at least draw a heal, which allows you to get the quake going). The idea of "force the NJ rush to spend an extra 2 or 3 turns to reach a key target" is easy to say but hard to achieve efficiently; it is harder still if the player using the NJ rush is good and is merely feinting to attack one unit, then changes direction and goes for the real target leaving you no chance to stop it. (A good example of this is quaking early close to the cleric, drawing out a heal; the NJ rush then starts going hell-for-leather after the frost which has no healing and will usually die pretty speedily if a knight gets up close and personal).

Also I think you will often find that the NJ rush, in the hands of a good player, will force you to respond to the threats it poses in the order it wants you to respond to them. It's simple to say "burninate the knights and DT!" in the forum, but not when you have a mud golem next to half your units quaking every other turn while you happily wallop the enemy knights around. It's easy to forget about the frost, scout, ambusher and cleric until the endgame, until you find that the NJ rush has sacrificed most of its tough units to get your cleric and your range, leaving apres-quake knights needing to charge a full HP frostie with no support or face being picked off.

No, there is only one way to deal with the netjak rush. And that is to attack faster than it can attack. Get the rusher worried about his key units. He values his cleric very highly, almost as highly has he regards killing yours; threaten it and you may find him pulling back from the assault on your frost to deal with the imminent threat to his normal gameplan of kill cleric and outlast the opponent. (BRs are great things; a single move without attacking can make them suddenly look like the most lethal unit on the board, which draws attention away from your main point of attack.) If he mudquakes you, don't waste your time defending your injured units- mudquake him straight back and let him work out whether he needs to heal (and waste an attacking turn) or keep attacking (and risk losing units that are, once again, key to his gameplan).

This general strategy (do what you want to do, not what your opponent wants you to do) will serve you well in any style of TAO game but it is VITAL in freestyle.

Incidentally, I hate the term "netjak rush". Only a small number of netjak players use it and it's not as if netjak invented it. Certain netjak players just made it popular because nobody really knew how to deal with it for a while.

__________________

Courtesy of ExpectDeath
Official Best and Worst Moderator of 2007 and 2008

Agreed. Good tutorial, suggestion.

__________________

Not at all: center your Cleric. The Scout can't reach and has to move (and wait a turn); the GA can't reach and has to move (and wait a turn), the Mud can't reach and has to move (and wait a turn). Suddenly, the entire attack-Cleric-fast aspect of the the NJR...ain't so fast.


I've been playing antis with no Frost for a couple of months now, so I'm not familiar with this phenomenon.



Nothing can force you do respond in a specific order. It's entirely up to you as the player to decide when a threat gets a response and when you're willing to take the hit in order to achieve your ultimate goal.



Which is exactly why, on my list of target priority, the Mud is second after the DT. I've played this strategy out in at least twenty games vs. NJRs, and it's failed me exactly once.


When the rusher realizes that his DT is down to 12 HP before your Cleric is dead, he starts to worry quite a bit.



That's the beauty of an all-out attack on the DT: it almost always involves putting a BR and a Mud within easy range of his Cleric, so that part of the gameplan is automatic.



Upon rereading this, I believe we're saying the same thing -- the beauty of the NJR is that everything in the setup is necessary to the gameplan. I'm just suggesting going for the hard-to-kill stuff in the early game when you have the firepower necessary to do so relatively easily.


Word.

__________________
Essence

Light a man a fire, and you keep him warm for a night. Light a man on fire, and you keep him warm for the rest of his short, agonizing life.

Don't want to do stupid endless quotes, so I'll keep it short and sweet:

"No battle plan ever survives first contact with the enemy."

Centred cleric is useful, but you'll still have trouble saving it and your scout if your opponent sacrifices mud and dragon for them. You'll have 128 HP to knock off, and they only have 64 to get. Having a DSM makes muddy unkillable in 3 hits (unless you use a LW or second pyro) and not having a frost gives the dragon freedom to roam; the spare turns can be used to move a knight up, maybe hit your mud, and get the scout to the corner of the board where it can cover your entire side of the field (possibly hitting mud again). If you're concentrating fire on the dragon and mud, you won't have time to put the NJ rusher on the back foot by moving up a BR because there is no point doing 67 damage to a dragon unless you finish it off.

__________________

Courtesy of ExpectDeath
Official Best and Worst Moderator of 2007 and 2008

I just read through this thread and i find it very interesting, i've often had trouble against the "netjak rush" and these tips will help me just fine. Thanks

I knew most of this through common sense. It just not hard to understand that pressuring the opponent is the key to winning(and many other things of couse). Say he goes for the cleric. Dont heal yet pressure by maybe bringing your dragon behind his fontline so its ready to attack his cleric. If he is smart he will go for the cleric kill if he isnt then he will try to save the cleric(but why try to save the cleric when it is almost as good as dead.

Its a nice tutorial though.

__________________
http://www.legendsforums.com/battle-...good-wins.html
CHECK MY WINS OUT!

:red:Strategic Insomniacs- Owning TAO since 11/27/07
SI Juniors- Owning since 12/16/03
SI Troops- Owning since 4/1/04
SI Halo 2- Owning since 12/16/04
SI Socom- Owning since 12/30/04
SI Guild Wars- Owning Since October 2005

Caffeinated..........Restless..........and Kicking Arse.

That is Ownage.......That is Stupendous.........We are.......Superb.

That was very well written Essence, with a lot of good points too. I used to never attack the enemy DT when I played defensive, figuring I would have no chance at killing it. But a LW hit on it right away definitely seems like a good idea. The DT is such a vital unit in an attack.

__________________

Going straight for the DT means that if it roams, it dies before it gets a second hit off unless it's hitting whatever is next to it and then retreating: no Frost necessary. There are no 'spare turns' if the NJR is going for your Cleric, so the Knight comment is invalid. And finally, moving up a BR and stabbing the DT (and the Mud and punching it from the back) do a good job of setting up a Cleric threat all on their own, so the NJR will be on a back foot just as a side-effect of the battle plan.

Oh -- and if no battle plan survived first contact with the enemy, we wouldn't have formations that came into play with premeditated goals and then accomplished them to win.

__________________
Essence

Light a man a fire, and you keep him warm for a night. Light a man on fire, and you keep him warm for the rest of his short, agonizing life.

Several holes in that post.

Firstly you are assuming the enemy attacks with the dragon. Usually he will go for the scout, but sometimes if he feels threatened he will just move dragon and wait. No way to save the cleric then.

Secondly, and more importantly, you have at most 4 turns to remove 80HP of dragon (with a heal). This is only possible if you use units with more than 22 power (knights, DSM, dragon). But only 2 DSM/dragon hits and 2 knight hits will do this before the dragon recovers. What happens if the dragon blocks? And how do you kill the dragon if it's out of DSM range after it moves? Meanwhile, do you let your scout get quaked to death by the mud, also spreading damage on other units, which cannot be healed if you fail to kill the dragon?

And even if you kill the dragon, what if the scout and mud both advance and kill the cleric anyway? Dragon for scout and cleric and damage is a nasty trade.

Sorry- just too many things about your strategy are easily countered. A good user of the netjak rush will eat your cleric and scout for breakfast.

__________________

Courtesy of ExpectDeath
Official Best and Worst Moderator of 2007 and 2008