BrutalRage

Oh anti, how I love thee.
Rush is nice, but winning is like throwing dice.
Turt is neat, but it sure can be beat.

I'm in a fantastic mood. I gotta say that anti sets are the best way to go. I'm lovin' it. Once upon a time I did turt. You see, I'm a defense kind of guy by nature. The reason is probably cause it's simple. It's easier to setup your lines of defense and let the enemy come at ya. That way you can control the possibilities and possibly control the game. So, I played turt for a very long time. My record was 1660 stats with double frost and double cleric. My motto was "Nobody dies", and "stay right there so that I can kill ya". Perhaps you could say that my turt was of the "super turt" flavor. There's different flavors of turts, ya know. It all has to do with the balance of offense and defense. My style of turts was extremely heavy on the defense so that it was difficult to kill anybody. I had few attackers. So, despite the fact that I got up to 1660 stats, I was well aware of its weakness. In particular, I had the most trouble with double beast rushes. So when I got double beasts myself, I decided to wean myself off of the turt bottle. Time to fight like a real man. Go crazy.

I didn't do too well at first. I was very used to having double clerics and a lightning ward. Now people were dying and I couldn't stop it. I had to rethink things. More and more I got comfortable with attacking in such a way that I don't lose as many units - and still come out ahead. Now longer was it a case of being in my little corner and fending off an attack - nor even mobilizing my units in making a concerted attack on a turt that plays even more defenisvely than I do. Now I was playing rush vs rush. You have to maximize your damage and minimize your hurts. You can't waste time. You can't stop to breath. It's go go go. Eventually I was using full rushes. I'd have the classic scout and double beast riders front and center. I'd have a mud to one side and a 3rd beast rider to the other side. That cleric was doomed. I was in full attack mode. All I had on the back end was a cleric and a frost. They frequently just served as bait. I got up to 1717 before I started to lose it. I wasn't winning all the games I could've been winning. I started to realize that this style of play has its own weaknesses. Luck became more important. I wasn't able to take down all types of sets - particularly rush vs rush. I kept losing stats and losing stats until I barely dropped below 1500+ for a very brief time.

So then I returned to a rush set that I used to use before I went full rush. I suddenly had a name for it. It was an anti. Turts are strong on defense, but are frequently vulnerable to full rushes. Rushes are strong on offense, but if your offense breaks on a turt or if you go up against another rush, then your lack of defense can kill you. There must be a set that does not suffer against full rushes. There are. They are called antis. This is short for anti rush. Sometimes people call a crafty turt an anti. But, I don't. I call a crafty turt a successful turt. Turts can succeed. I'm not one of those who believes that using turt gives you a disadvantage. But it does have certain weaknesses that makes it very difficult to play against full rushes. Anti sets do NOT share that same weakness. Anti's are the perfect mix between rush and turt. By that I mean, it has terrific defense and offensive capabilities. However, you can also call anti's corner rushes. The single gold rush is a corner rush. But, I call it an anti. That's why it is so powerful. That's why everybody and their mother uses a variation of it. It's got both defense and offense. It doesn't have a weakness to speak off. Not really. Sure, it can be countered. All sets can be countered. That's the beauty of TAO - there's no single set that has an advantage over all other sets. But it is well balanced. Just like my set. My set is like the single gold rush for grays. I'm in love.

Does anybody want to disagree? What do you think an anti is? Do you really think it takes more smarts to play a turt game than a rush vs rush or any game with an anti set? Do you think I'm a total nut job for making this thread? Well, I might agree with that last one.

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Thank you Hollywood for the first graphic.
Thank you ambienteternity for the second graphic

Bottle

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S3RO

Need s/s.

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Forest_Archer

The rhyming meter is a bit off. :P

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Angel of Sorrow

show me the set, might actually bring me back to tao

but eh nice poem

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BrutalRage

Ah, well, here's my 3rd variation on the gray corner rush. I've used it successfully against single gold rushes same side. If you get first turn, attack their mud with the beast and move in front of mud to body block ambusher. Even if you don't get first turn, you might do it anyway.
http://www.taorankings.com/BrutalRage-2BR-2FR.jpg

Pshah, good poetry writing is for emos.

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Thank you Hollywood for the first graphic.
Thank you ambienteternity for the second graphic

|airforceone|

Um.. if the set you're talking about is the set I pawned two times with my witch bomb then no.. that isn't an anti. Your set's objective is to hit them harder and faster than they can hit you, and once you get their vitals you fall back. That's classic rush in my opinion. And to be honest.. I don't really consider double frost furgon sets to be "turtles". In my mind a turtle must consist of a stone golem. However, some sets that contain a stone golem are not turtles. I need a ven diagram or something.

The NJ rush isn't an anti either. Not remotely close. They're called anti-rush for a reason. They are sets designed to stop and control any offensive threat that your opponent may have on your vitals. It is usually best used if the game is played in what I think of as mid-field, where you don't have to worry about your vitals and can use your specialty units to the best of their abilities.

The problem with your set is that you can't kill mages fast enough while blocking off your cleric and frosts. The reason I was successful against you is because my rush was simply faster than yours was. Its beautiful BTW. You should give it a try.

Well thought out sets are equally hard to use and be succesful with. The true test is to go up against un-familiar sets and pull off the win. Obviously some sets will have their advantages, but no set has ALL advantages. This goes along with your concept of a turtle beating a rush.

And yes you're crazy for making that post. But I'm just as crazy. So don't worry about it.

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That form still runs like a rush basically. ;p

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BrutalRage

So you're the jerk who managed to beat me with a bomb twice. I'd like you to know that bombs usually don't succeed against me. That's why I jumped you for that second game. I was that surprised that you beat me with a bomb. Even in my turt days bombs wasn't that difficult to defeat. But just because you outplayed me with that bomb doesn't mean my set isn't an anti rush.

You're describing a full rush. When going up against double frost turts, for example, I do not rush in and take out their vitals. I did that back in my full rush days and failed to break the turt sometimes. No, against those opponents (like my latest win against asrafas) I go into cautious attack mode and capitalize on the double frosts. True rushes don't have the defense to do that successfully. They have to rely on hard hitting power and/or speed. My scout and beasts are not in a position to rush from the first move unless I'm same side against a turt. But even then, I rarely rush from the beginning - preferring to let the frosts do their work. This differs from bombs and centered melee rushes.

Now that is an unexpected perspective. I think you differ from majority opinion on that one. Vast majority.

I might concede on this. My corner rush has more defense and the single gold rush has more offense when compared with each other. But it is a minor difference. In both sets the defense and offense is effective.

That's the idea behind turts. The whole mentality behind a turt is protecting the vitals. Without the vitals they are dead cause they don't have the offensive power to succeed. Unless of course, they take out enough opposition in the defense of those vitals. Turts just do it in a different way than antis. Turts try to block the attack (with bodies, lightning wards, barrier wards, freezing, and bushes) so that it is slowed to a pace the turt can handle. Anti's still uses blocking techniques, but is also more effective in killing the attackers outright. That's because it doesn't have the power weakness. Even an anti can be overcome by a rush. All sets can be countered. But my set is more effective at defending and defeating rushes than standard turts.

In essence it sounds to me that your definition of a anti is what most people call a turt, but is also capable of slowing and controlling a rush. Again, this is what I call a successful turt.

Not having to worry about your vitals is a full rush tactic. Take your bomb for example. The bomb does so much damage that the opponent doesn't bother trying to attack your vitals. They gotta clear out those witches.

As I said, bombs aren't usually effective against me. It was the composition of your particular bomb coupled with the fact that you're actually a good player that countered my set. And, no, I hate bombs. I've never used them, but I've defended against them too often for me to be convinced that they are sufficiently flexible. Get your bomb to 1600+ by playing everybody from stupid to smart and gold to gray and against all styles and I might change my mind. I know you have the skill. But is the set up to the task?

It runs like a rush, yes. It also runs like a turt. It is the most effective thing you could ask for when going up against a rush. Therefor, it's an anti. I'm not saying that my anti is the only form of anti. Anti's are identified as having high defense and attack. Therefor, usually they don't employ wards or double clerics. They might have a furgon. They should have at least one frost. They might have up to two witches. The formation isn't spread out - either a corner or center set, but corners typically provide the most defense when you aren't using a lightning ward.

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Thank you Hollywood for the first graphic.
Thank you ambienteternity for the second graphic

|airforceone|

It was more or less the fact that I was in control and attacking basically the whole game without worry of my attack slowing down. Antis usually have the ability to stop or deter an attack. I think you were trying to make your rush do things that its not supposed to. This gave me the sense of control..

Hm.. what's the difference between your cautious attack mode and how I played my witch rush? Both in my opinion are full out attacks.. trying to preserve units unless a good trade is presented. Mine may hit sooner than yours does, but the two concepts are basically the same. You advance all your units and attack vs. I advance units to flank and attack. Both strategies with preservation and good trades in mind.

A vast majority are stat whores and noobs so I'm glad I differ in opinion. =p


But your mindset isn't defense first in either set. You're first thought is offense with both is it not?


Hm. I think you're defenition of a turtle and an anti come from your grey games where you are the most experienced while mine comes from the gold game. Because my understanding of an anti is exactly what you described but at the same time its your defenition of a turtle.


Lol.. yup.

Which is why its so successful. Go ahead.. take out my witches. I'll just move my
melee units so far into your set that you can't do anything anymore. Or.. stop the melee units. I'll burn you with my witches until something breaks.

In my opinion its similar to your strategy with your set. Go ahead and focus on breaking my frosts' focus. I'm going to move my melee units so far into you that it won't matter if you manage get to my frosts. Or.. stop my melee units. I'll just freeze/kill you to death.

Both situations rely partly on the fact that you have more mobile units as well as the fact that a majority are on the front row.

My set isn't any different than others. I think its more the fact that most good players throw the idea of using witches front row out the window before they even give it a chance. I was worried about it when I first started with the set. I thought this can't work.. I'll be down a unit against most players from the get go. But it ends up working out in the end.

I got to 1500+ no problem. If I keep interest in the account than I have no doubt that I'd be able to get it up to 1600. I have played all different kinds of sets and the only one that really gives me problems is the center anti (what you call turt) and another bomb with witches on the walls.

Heh. My antis almost always have a LW in it. Obviously its one of the best ways to control an attack as you know your opponent will be wary of entering that zone. One frost.. definately. I usually go for two focus units. Furgon most of the time. I've never really used witches outside of my rush and dropless play. I've used double clerics on grey anti's more. =p

Anyway. I can see that you know, for the most part, what you're talking about. Its a different perspective. Not necessarily a bad one. Hell.. more people will probably agree with yours.

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