Discussion Thread

[Gypsy]

This is the thread where we will discuss units that have been submitted to be great units.

The judges are Gypsy, Cross Punisher, THC Blitz, Mister Blockey, Cyberopts, RedAzure and Essence.
All other people are welcome to post but we will take your post for what it is. And how much influence you have depends on how nice your post is and who you are.

For reference as to the rules check here.

the first unit for debate will be the Warlock Statue.

[Cross Punisher]

I always did find the easiest way to balance out units like the Warlock was to make it so that it couldn't morph into any unit you currently had on the board; this eliminates the 2 scouts, 2 stones, 4 knight scenarios but his way is nice too.

[T H C Blitz]

The Warlock is simple, but nice. Although I'm not sure if it is worthy to be deemed a Great Unit.

[MisterBlockey]

Wow the first unit and allready a difficult decision.
I'm going to look at this using a four factor system that I'll probably stick to for this forum, the factors being:
Originality: The originality of the unit idea in the abstract.
Implementation: Ease of implementation mechanically into the game.
Novelty: The amount of novelty the unit would bring to gameplay.
Balance: ... how balanced it is.

Originality: Somewhat original. There are scores of cloning units out there, but this is not quite the same thing as it holds a unit in an invulnerable case for later use.

Implementation: It could be implemented fairly easily without altering the game structure unnecessarily.

Novelty: It would bring a moderate amount of novelty to gameplay

Balance: I think this unit is slightly weak here as it does provide automatic long term defense for many end game units which might be offset by the immobility until undone if it weren't for it's double purpose as an immortal wall. For instance the way it's set up now if a chanty moves and freezes in range of it, it can still release the unit inside, and the one delay wouldn't matter for purposes of focus breaking. It also would provide a window behind which a dmw could operate without worry of harming friendly units, all for the relatively minor sacrifice of holding a unit for later.

Overal impression: It's a good unit, but perhaps not a great one. I think this was maybe the wrong unit with which to set the bar, as it strides the line and I'd like to get a feel for the units we're letting in before I pass judgement.

[Essence]

The Warlock Statue trades a pretty damaging in-game disadvantage (it requires a turn to "bust out", during which the unit can't be used, both "wasting" a turn and leaving the unit vulnerable for that turn) for a psychological advantage (the mystery of "what's in the box") and an in-game advantage (your chosen unit can't be harmed until you bust it out).

I can see the "standard" uses of this:

Enchantresses. Here's a unit that you don't really ever want, much less need, until the endgame. As long as you position the statue more than a Knight's move away from the Cleric, you can basically assume that the Knights will be busy trying to kill the Cleric, and you can pop out the Chanty relatively unharrassed, giving the Knight a painful choice.

Clerics. This really isn't that powerful of a tactic, but it's a really annoying one. Usually if you're going to run two Clerics, you want them both out so they can heal their defenders in sequence. But with a Statue, you can "surprise!" out another Cleric when the enemy kills your first one. Might be enough to rattle a less experienced player out of playing well.

Frosties. Another "surprise!", this one loses a lot of value in that it can't be used right away. Nonetheless, you may be able to lure an innocent unit into your pocket, nab it with a Berserker to ensure it can't react, and then bust out a Frostie and Paralyze it before the opponent can properly react. This tactic can also be used effectively with a Poison Wisp, though less so.


That's really about it. There's few other units that can afford to wait much past the 3rd or 4th turn and still be useful with a one-turn "reveal".

Overall, I'd say this unit is remarkably well-balanced for being such an edge case. Most units that exist on the boundaries of normality are either brokenly weak, brokenly powerful, or most often both. This unit is, in my humble opinion, just slightly too weak, but in a way that, if it were made any stronger, would be way too powerful. 9/10: it's extraordinarily tactically interesting, a fascinating and unique concept, and as balanced as it can be...which, unfortunately, isn't perfect.

I'd say this is a good start for the Great Units list, but I wouldn't expect it to stay on the Top 25 much past the 30th or so unit that we review.

[Gypsy]

I wasn't trying to set the bar with this unit Blockey, the attempt was to make it an older good unit.
I like the concept of the unit, since the unit doesn't count as existing inside the statue I love the potential of concealing a dsm. You could attack something with your dragon and then unleash the dsm. There would of course be a cooldown turn so you couldn't have it too far up for risk of them having a lw on your side. I love the psychological advantage it creates on defense. Think about this, I am attacking you, but I don't know if your extra unit is a frost, enchantress or possibly a berserker or wisp. It could also be concealing a Furgon to trap you after I have moved in a unit that can't teleport.

We will have the vote start on Thursday, after everyone who wants to post here has had a fair chance.
After 4 yays or nays the motion will be carried, but do not vote until Thursday at the earliest. Voting must be completed by Saturday.
After the unit motion has been decided the next unit for submission will be reviewed.

[IROK]

I like this unit, but with the exeption of the thing Gypsy mentioned in his post in the thread the unit comes from. By limiting the statue to becoming drops only, you make this extrememly balanced. Think about it...2 scouts? 2 wisps? 2 dragons? You can only go so far before something becomes overpowered, and allowing any units to be used crosses that line. Props to Reaper for even thinking of this unit, it is creative, innovative and one of the greatest things I've ever read on these forums.

On a side note, I'm hurt that I wasn't invited to help judge. Doesn't anybody love me anymore? :'(

[Gypsy]

Reaper limited it to a unit that you own off-field, that was the last official change if you guys didn't read that.

[Cross Punisher]

The thing about this unit is that while it's sort of original I don't see it as being very creative or that hard to balance. I could use these same points on the Light Magic Witch (A unit that does the total opposite of the DMW) but it wouldn't make a difference simply because people are sooo against another healer.

On an ironic note the same arguments that were used against me come up here too with the Warlock. The warlock provides people with the ability to mold their setup to better fend off the opponent's which in itself is unfair. Which unit you decide to turn the warlock into will depend largely on your opponent's setup; if they are bombing you with DSM, pyros, and witches you'll probably pick something else than if they were huddled in the opposite corner with 2 clerics. You should have to play the game with the weaknesses and strengths that your setup has over your opponents, but with the warlock you always have that additional strength that can just go too far at times. You basically create a setup with 9 units and then stick the warlock some place and say to yourself, "if my opponent is _____ then i'll turn it into a ____, but if he's _____ then I'll turn it into a ____. This gives you a far significant advantage against anyone who doesn't have a warlock.

[Gypsy]

You have the choose the unit beforehand from what I understood.